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  1. #1
    2009 Hooligan of the year
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    No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Interesting discussion on reactions to attempted serious discussions about climate change.

    https://youtu.be/D4MLgeZ1oEM

    https://youtu.be/MSx9KsMCGGI
    Last edited by zrx24; 05-25-2019 at 08:01 PM.

  2. #2
    my brakes are the only thing I drag
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    It’s nice to see someone try to have an actual discussion about it.
    Hanc Tuemur, Hac Nitimur

  3. #3
    2009 Hooligan of the year
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    The comment in the second link about the massive climate swings we currently deal with seasonally really puts things into perspective. And what man has been able to accomplish simply by harnessing fire was pretty interesting to think about.
    Last edited by zrx24; 05-25-2019 at 08:19 PM.

  4. #4
    Thinking, So You Don't Have To
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Revised post since my original was deleted. Hopefully, this is compliant:

    I like climate, climate is good. I hope the climate doesn't go away. Especially snow in the mountains.

    “Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!” Patrick Henry, American patriot.

    "Red is faster of course" 8/5/19 Ca Pete acknowledges the obvious.

  5. #5
    2009 Hooligan of the year
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    You failed the test, dude.

  6. #6
    Thinking, So You Don't Have To
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by zrx24 View Post
    You failed the test, dude.
    What, again?
    “Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!” Patrick Henry, American patriot.

    "Red is faster of course" 8/5/19 Ca Pete acknowledges the obvious.

  7. #7
    I used to be....
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    The climate always evolves, currently there's flooding going on in some areas to our north, been dry here for a couple of weeks and forecast is to stay that way. Whoops, that's weather not climate.

    Wonder what the climate has done over the last 200,000 years?

    "While our ancestors have been around for about six million years, the modern form of humans only evolved about 200,000 years ago. Civilization as we know it is only about 6,000 years old, and industrialization started in the earnest only in the 1800s. While we’ve accomplished much in that short time, it also shows our responsibility as caretakers for the only planet we live on right now."


    "The first tangible link to humanity started around six million years ago with a primate group called Ardipithecus, according to the Smithsonian Institution. Based in Africa, this group began the path of walking upright. This is traditionally considered important because it allowed for more free use of the hands for toolmaking, weaponry and other survival needs.

    The Australopithecus group, the museum added, took hold between about two million and four million years ago, with the abilities to walk upright and climb trees. Next came Paranthropus, which existed between about one million and three million years ago. The group is distinguished by its larger teeth, giving a wider diet.

    The Homo group — including our own species, Homo sapiens — began arising more than two million years ago, the museum said. It’s distinguished by bigger brains, more tool-making and the ability to reach far beyond Africa. Our species was distinguished about 200,000 years ago and managed to survive and thrive despite climate change at the time. While we started in temperate climates, about 60,000 to 80,000 years ago the first humans began straying outside of the continent in which our species was born."

    Could it be, as time goes on species evolve?

    Although not a great movie Water World with Kevin Costner can get one to thinking.

  8. #8
    2009 Hooligan of the year
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rickrides View Post
    What, again?
    No, your post that was deleted.


    All is right with the world again.

  9. #9
    2009 Hooligan of the year
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    One thing the I can't seem to reconcile is people thinking we can create an atmosphere on a planet that we already know has had its atmosphere stripped away due to natural causes (in many cases loss of magnetic field). Yet the same people that fantasize about that possibility can't seem to see doing the same thing here on Earth where we already have an abundance of resources available that can be recycled as necessary. Many of those same people think we'll need to abandon Earth one day and move to another far less hospitable planet. Why can't they see that if we develop the technology to create and control planetary atmospheres that we could just do that here on Earth?

  10. #10
    Color Monitor
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    [QUOTE]"The first tangible link to humanity started around six million years ago with a primate group called Ardipithecus, according to the Smithsonian Institution. Based in Africa, this group began the path of walking upright. This is traditionally considered important because it allowed for more free use of the hands for toolmaking, weaponry and other survival needs.

    The Australopithecus group, the museum added, took hold between about two million and four million years ago, with the abilities to walk upright and climb trees. Next came Paranthropus, which existed between about one million and three million years ago. The group is distinguished by its larger teeth, giving a wider diet.

    The Homo group — including our own species, Homo sapiens — began arising more than two million years ago, the museum said. It’s distinguished by bigger brains, more tool-making and the ability to reach far beyond Africa. Our species was distinguished about 200,000 years ago and managed to survive and thrive despite climate change at the time. While we started in temperate climates, about 60,000 to 80,000 years ago the first humans began straying outside of the continent in which our species was born."
    [/QUOTE]


    I evolved from the Likalotatpus group, where does that fit in the evolutionary timeline?







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  11. #11
    Thinking, So You Don't Have To
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by zrx24 View Post
    One thing the I can't seem to reconcile is people thinking we can create an atmosphere on a planet that we already know has had its atmosphere stripped away due to natural causes (in many cases loss of magnetic field). Yet the same people that fantasize about that possibility can't seem to see doing the same thing here on Earth where we already have an abundance of resources available that can be recycled as necessary. Many of those same people think we'll need to abandon Earth one day and move to another far less hospitable planet. Why can't they see that if we develop the technology to create and control planetary atmospheres that we could just do that here on Earth?
    Well, if the earth's magnetic field reverses, what would that do to the atmosphere? How does magnetism impact that? How can we control the entire planetary atmosphere? Most of the proposed colonies on places like the Moon or Mars envision people living under a giant bubble. Then you'd have to create and filter the atmosphere. Unless there's oxygen underground on Mars.

    I don't see any point in trying to colonize the Moon or Mars for that matter. How many people could really live there? Are we going to move billions of people from Earth to Mars? If so, we're going to need a bigger boat or a shit ton of the boats we have!

    Is it going to be like "wall e" where humans abandon the earth and float around in giant space cruise ships:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-kdRdzxdZQ

    Because, frankly, that looks like a whole lot more fun than trying to eke out an existence on Mars or Uranus.
    “Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!” Patrick Henry, American patriot.

    "Red is faster of course" 8/5/19 Ca Pete acknowledges the obvious.

  12. #12
    I used to be....
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by zrx24 View Post
    Why can't they see that if we develop the technology to create and control planetary atmospheres that we could just do that here on Earth?
    With the technology for altering human traits and crops, can changes be made there as well? It was very hot this weekend and I worked outside and by the end of each day was feeling bad. Good ole internet to the rescue, turns out our bodies can acclimate to the heat, huge body of research has been done with recommendations to acclimate. I can only suppose other animals can do the same? Plants? if the temperature increased 1/2 degree on average/year would it be noticeable?

    Also noticed I could fill up a glass with ice & water, after the ice melted the glass didn't overflow. Isn't most of the ice cap over water? If that's the case then would our coastal communities be in trouble? Seems like the ice has displaced water. How much of the ground is covered by ice? We have the ability to move oil through pipelines, wonder if it's possible to move melting ice from glaciers to deserts making them more inhabitable? Along with that wouldn't it create a situation where evaporative cooling could be used.

    "Evaporative coolers take the warm air and pass it over water-saturated pads, which in turn, causes the water to evaporate into it. This makes the warm air up to 25 degrees cooler and circulates it, making the area cooler all around reducing temperatures up to 40 degrees Fahrenheit.

    A nice change from 90 degree Fahrenheit temperatures and higher during the warmer months.

    When water evaporates from a surface, that surface immediately cools down because it requires heat to change the liquid into vapor. This concept is the same for evaporative coolers. As air comes in contact with water, it absorbs it. The amount of water that is absorbed depends on how much water is in the air. If the amount of water, also known as humidity, in the air is low, more evaporation takes place."

    Couldn't the same thing happen near the glaciers? Watching Deadliest Catch last night they were talking about how the ice pack was larger than the previous 10 years and how that was going to impact fishing & safety.

  13. #13
    I used to be....
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Thinking TG is much more advanced than many of us.

  14. #14
    Father Joe
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    People just need to shut up and send the guvmunt their paycheck. That will produce a new equilibrium and all will be good.
    I'm not completely useless. I can always be used as a bad example.

    The People's rear loading pink Beach Bomb.

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  15. #15
    2009 Hooligan of the year
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by McGovZRX View Post
    People just need to shut up and send the guvmunt their paycheck. That will produce a new equilibrium and all will be good.
    Dude, we can't use the G word anymore. Come on, get with the program!

  16. #16
    BadAss Hooligan
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Humans will be too busy arguing about it to make any real progress, but never fear...AI will fix all of the climate problems. Or at least figure out if there really are any. Seems like a milder climate would be what's best for AI...you know, to avoid water damage, short-circuiting and all.
    Of course, it might just decide that it would be best to leave it alone and thereby allow us to non-intentionally cull a significant portion of the human population, in order to return the earth to homeostasis.



    Well...until AI saves us (or doesn't), I challenge all of you to pass on the plastic straw at your next meal!!

    What kind of skipper-dick drinks beer out of a straw, anyway?!?

  17. #17
    Thinking, So You Don't Have To
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Also noticed I could fill up a glass with ice & water, after the ice melted the glass didn't overflow. Isn't most of the ice cap over water? If that's the case then would our coastal communities be in trouble? Seems like the ice has displaced water. How much of the ground is covered by ice?
    I'm no geologist but I believe much of the ice at both poles is floating or at least sitting on the water--which means water is being displaced. So, your observation should mean that if the polar ice over water melts into the oceans it will not cause the oceans to rise. Right?

    I would think that if the melting polar ice caps (if they are, indeed, melting) would cause the oceans to rise then everyone living in Malibu would be hot to sell their house on the beach. Cheap and quick. But I don't think we're seeing that trend and, in fact, beachfront property is probably just as expensive as it's ever been.

    Anyone know beachfront property real estate well enough to chime in? Is there a sell off or are prices stable or increasing?

    Due to man's ability to shed or put on clothing depending on the environment, I think man is more able to adapt quickly to temperature increases or decreases. We also have artificial heat and A/C when we need it. Animals, not sure. Plants are probably the least able to adapt and survive in an area that experiences rapid temp changes--except weeds of course, those damn things can survive any climate.
    “Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!” Patrick Henry, American patriot.

    "Red is faster of course" 8/5/19 Ca Pete acknowledges the obvious.

  18. #18
    President of the ZRXOA
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    zrx24, doing service to the ZRXOA community helping train wayward members!

    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  19. #19
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Big Harry

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  20. #20
    Thinking, So You Don't Have To
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by AV80R View Post
    zrx24, doing service to the ZRXOA community helping train wayward members!

    Indeed. I'm pretty recalcitrant though so . . .

    I don't see that you've commented on my pie thread though, Mr. Prez. Help a brother out.
    “Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!” Patrick Henry, American patriot.

    "Red is faster of course" 8/5/19 Ca Pete acknowledges the obvious.

  21. #21
    Badass Hooligan
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    I believe there is climate change, man made? Literally not so much.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."-Benjamin Franklin

  22. #22
    Thinking, So You Don't Have To
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    I believe there is climate change, man made? Literally not so much.


    Well, we know that North America was covered in glaciers at one point down to what, the Kettle Moraine area? That's a lot of glacier. And that's clearly not there anymore. So, what happened to all that glaciation? Here's an interesting article on the Pleistocene Epoch which was, according to the article, the most recent Ice Age. I hope posting this article about geological history doesn't get me banned. I'm pretty sure geology isn't political--yet.

    The Pleistocene Epoch is typically defined as the time period that began about 2.6 million years ago and lasted until about 11,700 years ago. The most recent Ice Age occurred then, as glaciers covered huge parts of the planet Earth.

    There have been at least five documented major ice ages during the 4.6 billion years since the Earth was formed — and most likely many more before humans came on the scene about 2.3 million years ago.

    The Pleistocene Epoch is the first in which Homo sapiens evolved, and by the end of the epoch humans could be found in nearly every part of the planet. The Pleistocene Epoch was the first epoch in the Quaternary Period and the sixth in the Cenozoic Era. It was followed by the current stage, called the Holocene Epoch.

    Worldwide ice sheets
    At the time of the Pleistocene, the continents had moved to their current positions. At one point during the Ice Age, sheets of ice covered all of Antarctica, large parts of Europe, North America, and South America, and small areas in Asia. In North America they stretched over Greenland and Canada and parts of the northern United States. The remains of glaciers of the Ice Age can still be seen in parts of the world, including Greenland and Antarctica.

    But the glaciers did not just sit there. There was a lot of movement over time, and there were about 20 cycles when the glaciers would advance and retreat as they thawed and refroze. Scientists identified the Pleistocene Epoch’s four key stages, or ages — Gelasian, Calabrian, Ionian and Tarantian.

    The name Pleistocene is the combination of two Greek words: pleistos (meaning “most”) and kainos (meaning “new” or “recent”). It was first used in 1839 by Sir Charles Lyell, a British geologist and lawyer.

    As a result of Lyell’s work, the glacial theory gained acceptance between 1839 and 1846, and scientists came to recognize the existence of ice ages. During this period, British geologist Edward Forbes aligned the period with other known ice ages. In 2009, the International Union of Geological Sciences established the start of the Pleistocene Epoch at 2.588 million years before the present.

    Defining an epoch
    While scientists haven’t been able to determine the exact causes of an epoch, changes in ocean current, composition of the atmosphere, changes in the position of the Earth in relation to the sun are believed to be key contributors.

    Overall, the climate was much colder and drier than it is today. Since most of the water on Earth's surface was ice, there was little precipitation and rainfall was about half of what it is today. During peak periods with most of the water frozen, global average temperatures were 5 to 10 degrees C (9 to 18 degrees F) below today’s temperature norms.


    There were winters and summers during that period. The variation in temperatures produced glacial advances, because the cooler summers didn’t completely melt the snow.
    “Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!” Patrick Henry, American patriot.

    "Red is faster of course" 8/5/19 Ca Pete acknowledges the obvious.

  23. #23
    President of the ZRXOA
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Science Rick is as good or better than P&R Rick!
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  24. #24
    Badass Hooligan
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    After the studies in automotive and previously aircraft powerplants I'll just say I'm not buying human cause.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."-Benjamin Franklin

  25. #25
    Hooligan
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    All will be right with the world if we can find a way to stop volcanic eruptions.
    And, rumour has it that ocean water levels are rising because of the ever increasing number of ships in existence (floating or sunk). They all displace water.
    Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement.

  26. #26
    Super Moderator
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Make a fast friend. Adopt a retired racing Greyhound

    www.greyhoundpets.org
    Or PM me for details

  27. #27
    Born In The USA
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    I think volcanic particle outflows and possibly impacts from space may have driven the temps down due to dust cloud cover over an extended period. Solar event deniers don't believe the sun heats the Earth, because they never leave their mom's basement.

    Look up "Little Ice Age" and you will find;

    "The Little Ice Age was caused by the cooling effect of massive volcanic eruptions, and sustained by changes in Arctic ice cover, scientists conclude. An international research team studied ancient plants from Iceland and Canada, and sediments carried by glaciers. ... The exact definition of the Little Ice Age is disputed."

    Dr. Gump once said, "Climate is like a box of chocolates, but the temps don't change for nuttin." Or sumpin' like that.
    Last edited by Cadman; 05-30-2019 at 10:07 PM.
    You'll never know how fast you can go, until you go too fast.

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  28. #28
    Thinking, So You Don't Have To
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by AV80R View Post
    Science Rick is as good or better than P&R Rick!
    The Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.
    “Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!” Patrick Henry, American patriot.

    "Red is faster of course" 8/5/19 Ca Pete acknowledges the obvious.

  29. #29
    Thinking, So You Don't Have To
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    The end of the dinosaurs is now linked to a major meteor strike near the Yucatan Peninsula. I saw that on "Draining the Oceans" so it must be true. I wonder how cold it got then.

    I though scientists were pretty clear that the Sun is a major influence on Earth's climate--solar flares and all that radiation being dumped into space. If the sun has no impact then why is it cooler at night? Why do we have winter and summer, which are due to the Earth's rotation on its axis?

    Is the Earth closer or farther away from the Sun at this point than at other times or is Earth's orbit and distance to the Sun always exactly the same?

    I have read that volcanic activity under the Earth's crust has some influence on global temps and that makes some sense. Also, that there is a lot of activity just below the surface in many areas, including Yellowstone. That may not bode well and maybe AOC was right: We'll all be dead in 12 years!

    As I stated in my post that was deleted--and this is not political--science is an ongoing study of things. Could be medicine. Could be metallurgy. Could be plants and animals and it could be the Earth and it's climate.

    One thing is for sure: Time will tell!
    “Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!” Patrick Henry, American patriot.

    "Red is faster of course" 8/5/19 Ca Pete acknowledges the obvious.

  30. #30
    Thinking, So You Don't Have To
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    Re: No P&R Test Run - Climate Change Discussion

    Here's an interesting article I found today. It's about geological conditions that impact the Antarctica's ice melting. This is a apparently a NEW discovery.


    An ancient rocky structure found at the heart of the Ross ice shelf helps determine where Antarctica's ice melts and where it stays firm and frozen.

    The structure is an old tectonic boundary, probably formed during the birth of the Antarctic continent or shortly thereafter. According to new research published May 27 in the journal Nature Geoscience, this boundary protects the ice shelf's grounding line, the point at which it is thick enough to extend all the way to the sea floor. The geology created by the boundary keeps warm, melt-promoting ocean water away from that part of the shelf. But the ocean circulation driven by that same geology drives intense summer melt along the shelf's easterly edge.

    "We could see that the geological boundary was making the seafloor on the East Antarctic side much deeper than the West, and that affects the way the ocean water circulates under the ice shelf," study leader Kirsty Tinto, a research scientist at Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University, said in a statement. [Antarctica: The Ice-Covered Bottom of the World (Photos)]

    West Antarctica and East Antarctica
    The Ross ice shelf is an expanse of ice 185,000 square miles (480,000) square kilometers) in area and hundreds of feet thick. Ice flows onto the shelf from the land-based East and West Antarctic Ice Sheets. Currently, the ice shelf is stable , Tinto and her colleagues wrote in Nature Geoscience, but geological and marine records show that is has collapsed in the distant past.

    To understand the dynamics of the ice sheet, Tinto and her colleagues used data from an airplane-based tool called IcePod, which holds instruments that collect information on ice-shelf thickness and structure as well as instruments that detect magnetic and gravitational anomalies from the rock underlying the ice shelf. Magnetic minerals, for instance, found in magma and other rocky material under Antarctica, can change the magnetic-field readings in those spots, while undersea topography can affect gravitational readings. With this data, the researchers reconstructed a map of the ice shelf and the rock underneath. [Photos: Diving Beneath Antarctica's Ross Ice Shelf]

    They found a stark transition zone bisecting the ice sheet. If Antarctica were a wheel, the boundary would look a bit like a spoke, emanating from a spot a bit off-center. This transition zone is actually the line of demarcation between the geology of West Antarctica and East Antarctica. To the west, the rocks are a combination of sedimentary and magmatic, having formed from tectonic interactions, at the confluence of an oceanic and tectonic plate. East Antarctica is ancient continental material known as craton.

    Geology's influence
    The newly discovered tectonic boundary bisecting the Ross ice shelf matters because it helps shape the seafloor beneath the ice. To the east, the seafloor is deeper, at 2,198 feet (670 meters), on average. To the west, the average depth is 1,837 feet (560 m), on average.

    The researchers used a computer model to show how seawater circulates, given this new geologic knowledge. The good news is that the seafloor geometry keeps most warm ocean water away from the Ross ice shelf. Instead, an area of open sea called the Ross Shelf Polynya vents the warm, deep-ocean water, cooling it before it can flow beneath the ice shelf. But there is a lot of ice melt along the leading edge of the ice shelf (where it meets the sea), especially in the summer. The highest summer melt is near Ross Island, on the East Antarctic side.

    So what does it all mean for a warming Antarctic? In the near future, the ice shelf's grounding line (the point at which it contacts the seafloor) should remain stable, at least in the face of moderate climate change, the researchers wrote. But variations in local climate will have a big impact on how fast the front edge of the ice shelf melts. These variations could include reductions in sea ice declines or cloud cover decreases, Laurie Padman, a senior scientist at Earth and Space Research in Oregon and study co-author, said in the statement.

    "We found out that it's these local processes we need to understand to make sound predictions," Tinto said.
    “Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!” Patrick Henry, American patriot.

    "Red is faster of course" 8/5/19 Ca Pete acknowledges the obvious.


 

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