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  1. #841
    President of the ZRXOA
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    1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    The box commonly used just west of KHAF from 1500-4000 feet complies with all the FARs for aerobatic flight.
    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  2. #842
    Hooligan
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    Massachusetts

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Quote Originally Posted by AV80R View Post
    The box commonly used just west of KHAF from 1500-4000 feet complies with all the FARs for aerobatic flight.
    There is an airway T257 just east of KHAF and another one V27 about 6 miles west of KHAF, the regs say you cannot do acro within 4 miles of an airway centerline, so perhaps the people using it have a waiver, but it seems like any acro just offshore is going to be within 4 miles of one of those airways, unless they are 10 miles out.

  3. #843
    President of the ZRXOA
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    1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Quote Originally Posted by Skybolt31 View Post
    There is an airway T257 just east of KHAF and another one V27 about 6 miles west of KHAF, the regs say you cannot do acro within 4 miles of an airway centerline, so perhaps the people using it have a waiver, but it seems like any acro just offshore is going to be within 4 miles of one of those airways, unless they are 10 miles out.
    There's no waiver required for aerobatics there.

    The rules specifically state no aerobatics within 4 miles of the centerline of a federal airway.

    Federal airways are Victor airways. T257 is not a federal airway, and thus not relevant in regards to any restrictions on aerobatic flight.

    V27 (the federal airway further out to the west) is no factor because it's more than 4 miles away from the practice area/aerobatic box.



    "T" or Terminal airways: https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/advoca...minal-airspace

    Victor airways: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_airways

    § 91.303 Aerobatic flight.
    No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight -

    (a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;

    (b) Over an open air assembly of persons;

    (c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

    (d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;

    (e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or

    (f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.

    For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.
    Last edited by AV80R; 08-17-2019 at 04:08 PM.
    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  4. #844
    Hooligan
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    Massachusetts

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Good to learn that T-Routes are not Federal Airways, perhaps as more VOR's are decommissioned, more of the Victor airways will be come T-Routes, that would open up a lot more space for practicing

  5. #845
    President of the ZRXOA
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    1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Heck yeah! Aerobatic lives matter.
    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  6. #846
    BadAss Hooligan
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    San Lorenzo, CA "The Mudflats"

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Quote Originally Posted by Skybolt31 View Post
    Good to learn that T-Routes are not Federal Airways, perhaps as more VOR's are decommissioned, more of the Victor airways will be come T-Routes, that would open up a lot more space for practicing
    WHAT!?!? VOR's are going away?
    "Enjoy the ride!"

  7. #847
    Even I miss the old flying dave
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    NC

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Quote Originally Posted by DaddyDave View Post
    WHAT!?!? VOR's are going away?
    For some time now.

  8. #848
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
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    New Braunfels, Texas

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    I disagree with T route not being a federal airway.

    The FAA created them. I don’t see how they are anything but a federal airway. They just changed the navigation source to keep up with the changing times. At some future time, all Victor routes will be gone.

    In some areas they are collocated with a Victor route. As VORs are decommissioned and a T route replaces the Victor route....how is it really any different?

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  9. #849
    BadAss Hooligan
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    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

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    For those who understand, no explanation is necessary.
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  10. #850
    President of the ZRXOA
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    1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    T routes are not considered federal airways. Dunno what else to say to convince ya.

    Do you do any aerobatics or have ever spent any time with your local IAC chapter, Dan?

    This is a pretty well known thing over here, under both the SFO and LAX Class B. I don't think it's plausible that everyone in the FAA, all the folks in each local IAC chapter, and some pretty famous aerobatic pilots that practice, perform, compete, and live here are wrong.
    Last edited by AV80R; 08-21-2019 at 05:41 AM.
    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  11. #851
    BadAss Hooligan
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    New Braunfels, Texas

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    If it works for you.

    I wouldn’t do it. The Feds here would at a minimum get you on 91.13

    I think if it went to FAA legal, they would say it’s a Federal airway. I agree, there is verbiage that says federal airways are Victor routes and LF colored routes. But it groups them in with Jet routes, Q routes and T routes. FAA pubs even say T routes are the same as Victor routes, but use RNAV. They are identical in every respect, other than an old sentence that leaves a loophole. They would get you for doing aerobatics in a privately owned jet warbird at FL200 near a Jet route. For sure.

    I don’t currently do any aerobatics. No plane available. We are considering an upset training class with a piston aerobatic aircraft. I’ve done little GA aerobatic. It’s all been in military jets: T37, T38, T6, T45, F16.
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    For those who understand, no explanation is necessary.
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  12. #852
    President of the ZRXOA
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    Pleasanton, CA

    1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    I can see where you're coming from and it's always good to be conservative when you're not familiar with something.

    I've been doing aerobatics next to these T routes ever since the FAA first created them. Check with your local FSDO and they can clarify this for you.

    T routes are not Federal airways, and not considered restrictive to aerobatic flight like Victor airways are.

    But, if you're not doing any aerobatics, it shouldn't matter much for you anyways. There's a very big community of folks out here that have already vetted this out with the FAA long ago.
    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  13. #853
    BadAss Hooligan
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    New Braunfels, Texas

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Couldn’t sleep.

    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

    Answers the under Class B issue.

    My “guess” is there is a Aerobatic Training Area defines that the FAA has approved. And that is where everyone goes, as it is blessed. These are not charted. But local pilots and groups would know of them.

    Regardless, when my FAA evaluator hat is on, I would say aerobatic flight should not be conducted within 4 miles of the T routes. But...we don’t have T routes here, there is plenty of open space to do aerobatics, and it is a non issue for me and my operation.
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    For those who understand, no explanation is necessary.
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  14. #854
    President of the ZRXOA
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    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Quote Originally Posted by bossracer View Post
    If it works for you... They would get you for doing aerobatics in a privately owned jet warbird at FL200 near a Jet route. For sure. .
    It doesn't matter what kind of aircraft you're in. If you do aerobatics within 4 miles of a Victor airway, you're in violation of 93.303

    But you can be in a jet or a Cessna 150 and do them right next to a T route with no problems whatsoever.

    Coincidently, only corporate jet in the country certified by the FAA for full aerobatic flight envelope is local to me. This Saberliner and a few other L39's conform to CFR 93.303 routinely doing aerobatics right next to these T routes...just like a Cessna 150.

    I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just sharing some well known information about this topic that I happen to be intimate with for decades on end. We've had a long list of aerobatic airplanes...Cessna 150 Aerobat, Starduster Too (a couple of these), Extra 300, Edge 540, Citabria, Super Decathalon, Christen Eagle...

    License to learn, right?

    Check with your local FSDO and they can help clear up any confusion you have about what is considered a federal airway for 93.303.

    Or contact Wayne Handley, Sean Tucker, or Vicky Benzing. They all offer aerobatic training or perform locally here and I'm sure would be more than willing to take a phone call to help you learn about what constitutes a federal airway and how it relates to 93.303.

    Here's some pics of the Saberliner here in the Bay Area you might enjoy. It's a gorgeous plane to see in action!







    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  15. #855
    President of the ZRXOA
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    Pleasanton, CA

    1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Quote Originally Posted by bossracer View Post
    Couldn’t sleep.

    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

    Answers the under Class B issue.

    My “guess” is there is a Aerobatic Training Area defines that the FAA has approved. And that is where everyone goes, as it is blessed. These are not charted. But local pilots and groups would know of them.

    Regardless, when my FAA evaluator hat is on, I would say aerobatic flight should not be conducted within 4 miles of the T routes. But...we don’t have T routes here, there is plenty of open space to do aerobatics, and it is a non issue for me and my operation.
    Understood, and I wholeheartedly accept your position, but you'd have zero ability to enforce it as a "FAA evaluator" based on current regulations.

    There is no specially FAA defined aerobatic training area to give exception to the T route just east of KHAF airport under the SFO class B. It's just like any other aerobatic flight anywhere else under 93.303.

    I can tell you don't believe me, so talk to someone you trust who is also an aerobatic pilot near some T routes!

    Here are me and some buddies taking a break from some (aerobatic) dogfighting in a bunch of Yak-52's right next to that T route at KHAF.



    We've taken friends up that are FAA safety inspectors with the Oakland FSDO and have talked specifically about this issue which confuses folks who aren't familiar with the differences between T routes and Victor airways. We have a blast doing this crap, I'd bet you'd enjoy it a lot too, Dan.

    In a couple weeks, I'll be out banging around the sky next to a few T routes in our biplane as well. If you're ever in my area, hit me up and I can let you get some free dual from my step dad in it. He's been teaching folks aerobatics here in the SF Bay Area for more than 40 years.



    I remember going though this debate when the T routes first appeared almost 20 years ago.

    Education and proper training will always be the best way to ensure safety and compliance with rules and regulations for any flight activity you're not familiar with, in a place you're not familiar with...but if you're not sure about something, you should definitely err on the side of caution like you have. That's 100% the smart thing to do.
    Last edited by AV80R; 08-21-2019 at 06:44 AM.
    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  16. #856
    Hooligan
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Massachusetts

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    I also assumed that T-routes were Federal Airway, after all, they look just like all the other airways on the map, they certainly are not state airways. There is actually a statutory definition of Federal Airways in 49 U.S. Code § 40102(a)(20) but it is not of much help, it only defines Federal airways as "a part of the navigable airspace that the Administrator designates as a Federal airway." In Order JO 7400.11C which is called the "Air Traffic Organization Policy, it lists all of the Federal Airways. Section 6009 is for Colored Federal Airways and section 6010 is for VOR Federal Airways. Section 6011 is for United States Area Navigation Routes which is where the T-Routes are. So, I would argue that the administrator is using that order to designate airspace that is Federal Airways and has not put T-Routes in that designation. I would't say that is iron clad and there may be regions where the FAA makes a different interpretation. For me it doesn't matter, I am surrounded by V-airways.

  17. #857
    President of the ZRXOA
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    Pleasanton, CA

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    I can totally see where you guys are coming from. It was very confusing and surrounded by lots of uncertainty when the T routes were first created.

    It wasn't until the FAA clarified it that everything was put to rest. I'll try and dig up the AC that finally made it black and white, but my first search was fruitless in locating it.

    It was a really hot topic for awhile but now it's common knowledge for the folks that live near these airways and do aerobatics.
    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  18. #858
    President of the ZRXOA
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    Pleasanton, CA

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    My youngest daughters first flight in 44C. These girls are the third generation of aviators in this beloved little plane of ours.













    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  19. #859
    Born In The USA
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    Redding, CA.

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    7.3 GPH
    You'll never know how fast you can go, until you go too fast.

    I have discovered that half of being a good rebel is knowing what to rebel against.



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  20. #860
    President of the ZRXOA
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    Pleasanton, CA

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    It's miserly appetite is great, and I don't mind going slow since I like logging time in the seat.
    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  21. #861
    Born In The USA
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    Oct 2004
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    Redding, CA.

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    I was just looking at a 140, in Maine on Barnstormers. 3,300 miles of head wind with 85 hp. 6 days or so to get back. Looks like your bird.
    You'll never know how fast you can go, until you go too fast.

    I have discovered that half of being a good rebel is knowing what to rebel against.



    2014 Ninja 1000

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  22. #862
    President of the ZRXOA
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    Pleasanton, CA

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    The 140A is truly the mini 170B! I have listed after a few of those in years past.

    Bring that 140 back sounds like a fun week (most likely kore with weather) to me.
    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  23. #863
    Born In The USA
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    Oct 2004
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    Redding, CA.

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Her name is "Ethel." $22,500

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    Pretty cute!

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    Last edited by Cadman; 10-13-2019 at 01:54 AM.
    You'll never know how fast you can go, until you go too fast.

    I have discovered that half of being a good rebel is knowing what to rebel against.



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    2005 ZX10

    1981 GPz550

  24. #864
    Weirdly Peculiar
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    Apr 2008
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    Where am I?

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Quote Originally Posted by AV80R View Post
    My youngest daughters first flight in 44C. These girls are the third generation of aviators in this beloved little plane of ours.



    Great pics Arash! Love the ManCave!

    2000 Green, 1109, Mikuni 38mm TMR-MJN's, Yosh pipe, ZX-11 cams, Pods, ZX-11 Ignitor, Kwick Kill, Tealdo Stick Coils, Wyn's Sprocket Cover, Ted's Battery Out, MonkeyPincher Rack

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  25. #865
    President of the ZRXOA
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    Pleasanton, CA

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadman View Post
    Her name is "Ethel." $22,500

    Attachment 319405

    Pretty cute!

    Attachment 319406
    Rotating beacon and OG wheel streamlines. I like it!
    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

    CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

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  26. #866
    Hooligan
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Massachusetts

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadman View Post
    7.3 GPH
    7.3 is nice, I do more like 10.7 in the Eagle!

  27. #867
    President of the ZRXOA
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    Pleasanton, CA

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    A nice fall day here in N CA



    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  28. #868
    CarlM
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Central California

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    This place is right down the road from "Turlock" airpark in Ballico

    https://www.bing.com/search?q=tri+ti...Umm6gO&plvar=0


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  29. #869
    President of the ZRXOA
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    Pleasanton, CA

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    Quote Originally Posted by green12 View Post
    This place is right down the road from "Turlock" airpark in Ballico

    https://www.bing.com/search?q=tri+ti...Umm6gO&plvar=0
    Looks like a great opportunity for a $100 hamburger flight! Miss ya buddy. Hope you’re having fun being retired.
    Arash (pronounced "our-ash")

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  30. #870
    Hooligan
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
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    next door to Ocala FL

    Re: 1955 Cessna 170B "Fo-Fo Charlie"

    My last flight over the pond. sorry we weren't inverted.
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