double valve springs

[mudnducs]

Use a sacraficial valve to do the lapping, one for intake, one for exhaust...and run unlapped valves in the lapped seats.

Be sure to grind off the 'Shroom before pulling the valve thru the guide.

Thank you Sir.

[mudnducs]

Well...I just came back from Mike Schmidts (schmidt314) and he was very helpful! Thanks Mike!

ALL of the shims are loose in the retainers. It should be difficult to move them arouind once they are in the pocket sitting on the valve stem...maybe .001 - .002" slop....ther's at least .010 on all of them. You can literally slide them around in the shim pocket.

The retainers on both of the broken springs were chewed up adn difficult to remove.
The valve spring seats were both chewed up.
All the spring seats so far also have shims/washers under the seats.
Valves may be thin in the head area...have to check against a stock valve.

BUT

The seats in the head look good.
The valves are all tight in their guides so far

Plan (after getting the head completely disassembled) is to lap the valve seats, replace the one wasted intake valve, install using new ZX11 dual springs, ZX11 retainers and springs seats and new guide seals and keepers.

Also re-hone the cylinders and re ring the pistons while it's apart.
Seth/Rich....one of those carbide ball type hones work on Nikasil liners?

[KWICK]

You can use a dingle ball hone on plated cylinders. Some tuners say no, but most say yes.

[schmidt314]

Nikasil cylinders actually require diamond hones. Regular hones do very little besides clean junk out.

[KWICK]

Nikasil cylinders actually require diamnd hones. Regular hones do very littel besides clean junk out.

Yup like I said.

[dimora]

Well...I just came back from Mike Schmidts (schmidt314) and he was very helpful! Thanks Mike!

ALL of the shims are loose in the retainers. It should be difficult to move them arouind once they are in the pocket sitting on the valve stem...maybe .001 - .002" slop....ther's at least .010 on all of them. You can literally slide them around in the shim pocket.

The retainers on both of the broken springs were chewed up adn difficult to remove.
The valve spring seats were both chewed up.
All the spring seats so far also have shims/washers under the seats.
Valves may be thin in the head area...have to check against a stock valve.

BUT

The seats in the head look good.
The valves are all tight in their guides so far

Plan (after getting the head completely disassembled) is to lap the valve seats, replace the one wasted intake valve, install using new ZX11 dual springs, ZX11 retainers and springs seats and new guide seals and keepers.

Also re-hone the cylinders and re ring the pistons while it's apart.
Seth/Rich....one of those carbide ball type hones work on Nikasil liners?

Good plan Bill...I run ZX-11 double valve springs on an ED46 ported head with Muzzy ZZR grind cams (pitted, of course) and have had zero issues even running up to 11,500 RPM with my ZX-11D ignition box.

[KWICK]

Hey, does the Hayabusa use shim buckets?

If so, that is whay the aluminum retainers got wallered out...they are not deisgned to withsant the slide loading from the rocker directly on the shim.

If not, nevermind...

[KWICK]

Found it:
"Lightweight shim-under-bucket valve train with narrow 14 degree valve angle for high combustion chamber efficiency. "

You cannot use the Hayabusa retainers in a non-shim bucket motor.

[zrx24]

Hey, does the Hayabusa use shim buckets?

If so, that is whay the aluminum retainers got wallered out...they are not deisgned to withsant the slide loading from the rocker directly on the shim.

If not, nevermind...

Found it:
"Lightweight shim-under-bucket valve train with narrow 14 degree valve angle for high combustion chamber efficiency. "

You cannot use the Hayabusa retainers in a non-shim bucket motor.

Interesting, and certainly makes sense.

[KWICK]

Interesting, and certainly makes sense.

Yup, aluminum, unless it's hard anodized, is definitely too soft, and hard ano is pretty thin.

[mudnducs]

Nikasil cylinders actually require diamond hones. Regular hones do very little besides clean junk out.

Question: I'm going to re-ring the pistons. If I locate and use a diamond hone (because the Nikasil is that hard) are piston rings hard enough to wear in the bore once the motor is running?

[mudnducs]

Good plan Bill...I run ZX-11 double valve springs on an ED46 ported head with Muzzy ZZR grind cams (pitted, of course) and have had zero issues even running up to 11,500 RPM with my ZX-11D ignition box.

Do you use stock spring seats, retainers, and keepers as well?

[mudnducs]

Question: I'm going to re-ring the pistons. If I locate and use a diamond hone (because the Nikasil is that hard) are piston rings hard enough to wear in the bore once the motor is running?

anyone?


.

[KWICK]

anyone?


.

Read my post above.

[zrx24]

anyone?


.

Poked around a bit and found some of the comments here enlightening. Doesn't answer your question about seating the rings. But it does shed a little more light about what one is actually trying to accomplish by honing.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...er-liners.html

[KWICK]

Yup, what I said.

[SteddyTeddy]

You cannot use the Hayabusa retainers in a non-shim bucket motor.

What do you think I been running in 2 different heads now for the past couple years? Dean ran the same in his drag bike. The stock AL busa retainers actually have a deaper pocket for the shims to sit in. It's a real PITA to change shims without pulling the cams. The shims fit very tight! Now I have had a set of Ti Busa retainers and the shims fit so loose that I would not use them and sold them off.

edit: I just looked at the first picture again. Those are Ti retainers.

[SteddyTeddy]

anyone?


.

How do you think the rings broke in from new? Run a couple of quick cleanup passes with the hone and if eveything looks good you'll be fine.

[KWICK]

What do you think I been running in 2 different heads now for the past couple years? Dean ran the same in his drag bike. The stock AL busa retainers actually have a deaper pocket for the shims to sit in. It's a real PITA to change shims without pulling the cams. The shims fit very tight! Now I have had a set of Ti Busa retainers and the shims fit so loose that I would not use them and sold them off.

edit: I just looked at the first picture again. Those are Ti retainers.

If his shims loose in the bucket like it sounded he described them as, then running retainers that use a bucket without a bucket could be the cause.

If he was running Ti retainers and they were loose, me thinks he, or his mechanic, needs to inspect aftermarket parts more closely...as I say: "Nuttin' aftermarket fits without a hammer."

If neither applies, then nevermind.

[mudnducs]

Yup, what I said.

What is 'what you said'? I didn't see where you said anything about diamond hones or carbide grape hones or al2O3 grape hones.

How do you think the rings broke in from new? Run a couple of quick cleanup passes with the hone and if eveything looks good you'll be fine.

That's what I was asking Ted. In Chris's excellent link below the car guys have some pretty specific ideas about how to work with Nikasil.

Poked around a bit and found some of the comments here enlightening. Doesn't answer your question about seating the rings. But it does shed a little more light about what one is actually trying to accomplish by honing.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...er-liners.html

Thanks Chris....sounds like all I need is some red Scotchbrite or a softer grape hone.




This place rocks!!!!!!!!!!

[KWICK]

You can use a dingle ball hone on plated cylinders. Some tuners say no, but most say yes.

[mudnducs]

[KWICK]

...I've called 'em Dingle Ball hones since high school...

[mudnducs]

FYI stuff.


here's a picture of 3 valve spring seats

left is a normal unit center is #3 intake and right is #1 intake.








this is a picture of the right #1 intake spring seat by itself...pretty chewed up. I'm scared to think where all the hardened steel went. Sure glad Arlie installed one of those magnetic grain plugs...now I know where it went.

[mudnducs]

Stupid question: I just got done reassembling the head after lapping all the valves, final cleaning, new springs/retainers/keepers/guide seals.
I installed all the valve springs with the close packed coils against the head...it occurs to me this could be wrong and I'd just as soon find out now. Installed them that way as I imagines if I kpet the heavier and of the spring at the head it would reduce recip mass...every tiny bit helps.

Does it matter which way you install the valve springs?

[schmoo]

Reading this post and others makes me sorry I bought APE springs and retainers (not installed yet ) instead of new ZX11 springs for my 1109. Anyone want a good deal on some APE springs ?

[mudnducs]

Reading this post and others makes me sorry I bought APE springs and retainers (not installed yet ) instead of new ZX11 springs for my 1109. Anyone want a good deal on some APE springs ?

It shouldn't be man.

[KWICK]

Does it matter which way you install the valve springs?

Yes, read the shop manual.

[mudnducs]

I don't have one for a ZX11 (ZX11 springs). The ZRX manual only says "close coil end down"....both ends of the spring are closed coil. The picture looks like the close wound end is down. But thanks.

[KWICK]

I don't have one for a ZX11 (ZX11 springs). The ZRX manual only says "close coil end down"....both ends of the spring are closed coil. The picture looks like the close wound end is down. But thanks.

You need to look in a ZX11 manual. The ZX11 springs go painted end up, but I don't remember tight/loose on the inners.