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  1. #1
    BadAss Hooligan
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    R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    I love this board.

    You can ask any question about anything on here and someone who is an expert - and probably who works in the field - will have a correct answer.

    So here I go:

    I live in Atlanta...and it gets freaking hot and humid here (duh) so my air conditioners require that they be in tip-top shape so they can keep up.

    My downstairs A/C is struggling a bit, so yesterday I gave both my upstairs and downstairs units the full treatment that I am capable of - I took apart the outside unit and cleaned the coils - they were dirty for sure - I gently vacuumed them clean of fuzz and grass and pollen and leaves and crap that had gotten in there careful so as to not bend the fins, and then I sprayed a can of that coil cleaner that Home Depot sells on them and rinsed them gently with the garden hose...they are now shiny and silver once again.

    I re-assembled.

    Then, I put brand new filters on the inside units.

    My question is about refrigerant. I know about cars...R12 is the banned stuff that is going to ruin the Ozone layer and kill us all that is super expensive if you can find it , R134 is the new stuff that replaced the R12 that is safe for Earth but doesn't work as well, but you can buy at any auto parts store...but what about R22 that is in my home air conditioners?

    Is R22 "controlled" and I need to be licensed to put some in? Can I go buy some gauges and do it myself? There is a temperature / pressure chart on the unit I could use if I can get my hands on the gauges and some of the R22. Or is it also now banned and super expensive, with a modern replacement in newer units?

    Hit me with the skinny!



    Turn To The Spice! - "Macho Man" Randy Savage - Slim Jim Commercial

  2. #2
    winda licker
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    In a state of perpetual discontent

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Who needs an expert when you've got Wikipedia.....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorodifluoromethane

    __________________




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  3. #3
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    Edgerton Wisconsin

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    You won't be able to buy R22 at any place that has any idea about what it's doing regarding the sales of CFC and HCFC's. The only people that can purchase R-22 are technicians with a 608 certification.

    At least this is my understanding of it. We decided to not sell refrigerants but I took a quickie class just in case that explained what we'd need to do and have on file if we sold them.

  4. #4
    Kwickipedia
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    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Use the propane ac stuff they use in Europe, it's like $4 a can...


    "Some roads you shouldn't go down because maps used to say there'd be dragons there. Now they don't, but that don't mean the dragons aren't there."
    ...Billy Bob Thornton, Fargo

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  5. #5
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
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    Acworth, GA - USA

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by nathan b View Post
    You won't be able to buy R22 at any place that has any idea about what it's doing regarding the sales of CFC and HCFC's. The only people that can purchase R-22 are technicians with a 608 certification.

    At least this is my understanding of it. We decided to not sell refrigerants but I took a quickie class just in case that explained what we'd need to do and have on file if we sold them.
    Quote Originally Posted by KWICK View Post
    Use the propane ac stuff they use in Europe, it's like $4 a can...
    OK, so bottom line is it is controlled and I need a certified guy to do it for me.

    I did a Google on R22 and came up with yes, it does kill the ozone layer, but it is NOT banned yet...and "they" said it is indeed "controlled".

    Kwick, what is this stuff you speak of, and can I mix it with R22?

    I still need to procure some gauges if I am going to try a DIY fix (I don't even know if it is low, but typically one of the units has needed topped off about every 2 years...usually at a couple hundred dollars since the local heating / cooling guys bone you).


    Turn To The Spice! - "Macho Man" Randy Savage - Slim Jim Commercial

  6. #6
    Giving you the call.
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
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    Down the rabbit hole

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by dimora View Post

    I did a Google on R22 and came up with yes, it does kill the ozone layer, but it is NOT banned yet...and "they" said it is indeed "controlled".


    I find it strange that Los Angeles is overwhelmed with high ozone levels, but any Freon that leaks from cars or home ACs bypasses all of that ozone, and goes directly to the sky, high over Antarctica, killing the ozone there.




    I also believe that DuPont's patent on R-12 was about to expire, so they made a major push to get it outlawed world-wide, and replaced with a "safer" alternative.

    Care to guess who owns the patent on R-134?
    [center]


  7. #7
    Kwickipedia
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    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by dimora View Post
    Kwick, what is this stuff you speak of, and can I mix it with R22?
    It's available in several states. You replace the freon with it. In Europe, they use it in every home, biz and auto A/C system.


    "Some roads you shouldn't go down because maps used to say there'd be dragons there. Now they don't, but that don't mean the dragons aren't there."
    ...Billy Bob Thornton, Fargo

    PayPal to: Pete@Hyper-Formance.com
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  8. #8
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    Lake Hartwell and I-85

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Propane (not the LP gas propane, but the pure stuff) has thermodynamic properties that almost exactly match R12. I put it in my old Nissan pickup many years ago and never had an issue with it.

    R22 has different characteristics than R12, as it can be used for heat pump applications.

    These "ozone killers" may be more environmentally friendly than the "environmentally friendly" refrigerants. They don't have the greenhouse effect that the "environmentally friendly" refrigerants do. For example, R134a has 1300 times the global warming potential (GWP) as carbon dioxide (reference: EPA http://www.epa.gov/otaq/climate/420f...m#information).

    For mobile applications, look for carbon dioxide systems in the future. Only a handful of manufacturers in the EU use it now, as the pressures are much higher. These pressures require different (and more costly) compressors, lines, and evaporator / condenser coils.



    Bill Clinton got $12 million for his memoirs
    Hillary Clinton got $8 million for her memoirs
    That's a lot of money for two people who, under oath,
    could not remember anything!

  9. #9
    I was born to have adventure.
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, Mo.

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by KWICK View Post
    It's available in several states. You replace the freon with it. In Europe, they use it in every home, biz and auto A/C system.
    "hot shot"?
    Quote Originally Posted by BDS View Post
    Oh, and thank you for the disability money. I hope your breaking you back to pay me.

  10. #10
    Kwickipedia
    Join Date
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    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckc View Post

    I also believe that DuPont's patent on R-12 was about to expire, so they made a major push to get it outlawed world-wide, and replaced with a "safer" alternative.

    Care to guess who owns the patent on R-134?
    Yup, Ewe are right, and they got the tree huggers to go out and "believe" in the cause.

    So, why is Ozone at ground level bad, and wwwwwaaaaaayyyyy up high it's good?


    "Some roads you shouldn't go down because maps used to say there'd be dragons there. Now they don't, but that don't mean the dragons aren't there."
    ...Billy Bob Thornton, Fargo

    PayPal to: Pete@Hyper-Formance.com
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  11. #11
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
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    Acworth, GA - USA

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by z1r1x00 View Post
    "hot shot"?
    Is that it, Kwick?


    Turn To The Spice! - "Macho Man" Randy Savage - Slim Jim Commercial

  12. #12
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
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    Acworth, GA - USA

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    I found something on the internets called DuraCool:

    http://www.gmcws.org/techcenter/TC41.pdf

    and this:

    http://www.idealcoolantsolutions.com...tm#DuracoolCan


    Turn To The Spice! - "Macho Man" Randy Savage - Slim Jim Commercial

  13. #13
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    03076 / 33917

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    I just bought 3 cans of R-22 and a hose/guage kit off EBAY

    PS rumor has it I have R12 available where I work, I have to look on the shelf to see

  14. #14
    Kwickipedia
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    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by dimora View Post
    I found something on the internets called DuraCool:

    http://www.gmcws.org/techcenter/TC41.pdf

    and this:

    http://www.idealcoolantsolutions.com...tm#DuracoolCan
    Yup, that's it.
    Supposed to have larger molecules that do not leak as easy.
    Also, the oil in the ac is more flammable than the propane...and a zillion cars/trucks/buses are propane powered anyway...


    "Some roads you shouldn't go down because maps used to say there'd be dragons there. Now they don't, but that don't mean the dragons aren't there."
    ...Billy Bob Thornton, Fargo

    PayPal to: Pete@Hyper-Formance.com
    Pete Aronson
    315 West Elliot Road
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  15. #15
    Recovering Glockoholic
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    R22 is being phased out. It will still be produced until 2020, but as of 2010 they are supposed to begin decreasing production more and more every year. I currently pay about $180 for a 30 pound bottle so it cost me at the whole sale level about $6/pound. I sell it for $25-$30 pound and most systems that are low only require 1-2 pounds to "top off" during normal servicing IF THE UNIT NEEDS FREON. The unit should NOT normally need freon, if you have to add it then you have a leak. It does not "wear out" and does not need to be "changed". If your unit looses 25%-33% of the total freon charge (listed on the data plate on the unit) it will begin to freeze up when it runs.

    R22 cannot be purchased by just anybody because the EPA decided about 13 years ago that you have to have a certification to handle the stuff. Also in Texas most supply houses will not sell the stuff to you certification or not if you do not have a state A/C license.

    As R22 production begins to be cut back expect to start having to pay more for adding freon than hard parts like relays and fan motors. And lets talk about fan motors for a second. I pay $40-$65 for a universal fan motor that fits most outside A/C units and about $15 more for the one that goes inside the furnace. I charge about $325-$375 to install a fan motor in your outside A/C unit and that includes a new capacitor and relay if needed. I make good money, but I don't think I gouge....compared to lots of companies that get $750-$1200 for the same motor that we both pay $60 for!!! That's how they sell new units....

    "Mam, you're fan motor is out and it's gonna cost about $1100 to replace it and your 8 year old unit could break down again for any number of other problems anytime. Now we can install a new A/C unit on the outside of your home for only $2500 and it comes with a 5 year warranty on ALL the parts......kind of silly to put a new fan motor into an old A/C that could lose a compressor next week isn't it?"


    I guess I could buy a new Wing or Truck if I went around selling equipment. But my dad taught me to fix Air Conditioners and that's what I like to do. I figure if I make a few hundred dollars over the years repairing somebody's units that they'll call me when it dies for good and I'll install a new one for them when they need it, not when I wan't it.

    Sorry, I'll get off my soap box now and get back to the topic...Freon.

    Check the temperature of the air going into the return air grill and the temperature of the air coming out of the closest vent in the ceiling. On a properly operating residential central A/C system the air should be 18-20 degrees colder coming out than going in. If you have a good volume of air coming out of the discharge vents and it's cooling the air down 18-20 degrees then you don't need freon and the unit is working properly.

    Cleaning the outside coils like you did and keeping the filters CLEAN are the two MOST important things you can do to keep your A/C system healthy and give it a nice long life.

    Craig

    Speak softly and carry a BIG stick.
    (and a .45)

  16. #16
    Recovering Glockoholic
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by dimora View Post
    I love this board.

    You can ask any question about anything on here and someone who is an expert - and probably who works in the field - will have a correct answer.
    Me too!!! This place rocks!


    Now, if only somebody knew anything about male pattern baldness of the left big toe.....

    Speak softly and carry a BIG stick.
    (and a .45)

  17. #17
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Acworth, GA - USA

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Running Rabbit, you rock!

    I'll do the temperature differential tomorrow and report back.


    Turn To The Spice! - "Macho Man" Randy Savage - Slim Jim Commercial

  18. #18
    Needs constant supervision
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Wrong G.D. side of the Planet

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    dimora, let me add a lot of times A/C units are working fine...its a lack of proper insulation in the house or bad windows that cause it too seem not to cool enough.
    I love the sound of screaming rubber and burning women!

    95% of the time stayin in the gas will save ya.

    The other 5% of the time it ends the suspense right now!!!

  19. #19
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Edgerton Wisconsin

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Wow! As a compliance person, ebay scares the crap out of me... you've got someone illegally selling you a restricted refrigerant that is also a hazardous material to ship. I'm guessing they aren't a haz mat shipper. AWESOME!

  20. #20
    Recovering Glockoholic
    Join Date
    May 2005
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    San Antonio, Texas

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by zippy View Post
    dimora, let me add a lot of times A/C units are working fine...its a lack of proper insulation in the house or bad windows that cause it too seem not to cool enough.
    Yes that is true, which is why it's important to check the temperature differential of the air coming out of the vents. I've been to lots of homes that have a properly operating A/C system but hot rooms. Most of the time the room in question has multiple exterior walls and absorbs more heat at a faster rate then the other rooms or worse, the upstairs room will have a wall that has attic space behind it. Now instead of the back of the wall being 95-100 degrees like the exterior walls it has 120-130 degree air behind it in the attic.

    If the A/C is cooling the air 18-20 degrees but the room is still hot, then it needs a higher volume of air. But if the room in question is absorbing heat at a higher rate (like the attic wall) then dumping more air in the room still won't fix the problem, because as soon as the thermostat shuts the system down that room will still heat up faster than the rest of the house making it uncomfortable way before the thermostat located in another part of the house decides it's warm enough for another round of cold air.

    Poor house design and lots of time poor A/C duct design are the main culprets.

    You can't fix cheap ass builders who want to squeeze an extra $500 out of each house by cutting corners.

    Speak softly and carry a BIG stick.
    (and a .45)

  21. #21
    Kwickipedia
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    This ^

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by nathan b View Post
    Wow! As a compliance person, ebay scares the crap out of me... you've got someone illegally selling you a restricted refrigerant that is also a hazardous material to ship. I'm guessing they aren't a haz mat shipper. AWESOME!
    I have daily UPS pickup at the house and I'm a certified HazMat shipper. It's a 6-8 hour online course and an inspection by UPS.


    "Some roads you shouldn't go down because maps used to say there'd be dragons there. Now they don't, but that don't mean the dragons aren't there."
    ...Billy Bob Thornton, Fargo

    PayPal to: Pete@Hyper-Formance.com
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  22. #22
    Kwickipedia
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    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by Running Rabbit View Post
    Yes that is true, which is why it's important to check the temperature differential of the air coming out of the vents. I've been to lots of homes that have a properly operating A/C system but hot rooms. Most of the time the room in question has multiple exterior walls and absorbs more heat at a faster rate then the other rooms or worse, the upstairs room will have a wall that has attic space behind it. Now instead of the back of the wall being 95-100 degrees like the exterior walls it has 120-130 degree air behind it in the attic.

    If the A/C is cooling the air 18-20 degrees but the room is still hot, then it needs a higher volume of air. But if the room in question is absorbing heat at a higher rate (like the attic wall) then dumping more air in the room still won't fix the problem, because as soon as the thermostat shuts the system down that room will still heat up faster than the rest of the house making it uncomfortable way before the thermostat located in another part of the house decides it's warm enough for another round of cold air.

    Poor house design and lots of time poor A/C duct design are the main culprets.

    You can't fix cheap ass builders who want to squeeze an extra $500 out of each house by cutting corners.
    I Arizona, it regularly gets to 120+ degrees outside.
    My house is ALWAYS 74 degrees inside.

    That's a 46 degree drop...and it'll go cooler.


    "Some roads you shouldn't go down because maps used to say there'd be dragons there. Now they don't, but that don't mean the dragons aren't there."
    ...Billy Bob Thornton, Fargo

    PayPal to: Pete@Hyper-Formance.com
    Pete Aronson
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    602-397-4869

  23. #23
    Recovering Glockoholic
    Join Date
    May 2005
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    San Antonio, Texas

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by KWICK View Post
    I Arizona, it regularly gets to 120+ degrees outside.
    My house is ALWAYS 74 degrees inside.

    That's a 46 degree drop...and it'll go cooler.
    The temp drop I'm talking about is the differential between the air being sucked into the return and the air being discharged out of the supply vent. A properly operating residential system should cool the air about 18-20 degrees as it travels through the unit. How many times it travels through the unit is up to you and your T-stat.

    Speak softly and carry a BIG stick.
    (and a .45)

  24. #24
    Kwickipedia
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
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    This ^

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by Running Rabbit View Post
    The temp drop I'm talking about is the differential between the air being sucked into the return and the air being discharged out of the supply vent. A properly operating residential system should cool the air about 18-20 degrees as it travels through the unit. How many times it travels through the unit is up to you and your T-stat.
    Gotcha

    Damn GM books say their cars are suppose to have a 65-70 degree vent temp and that is normal...in AZ, you'd melt if air only got that cold....


    "Some roads you shouldn't go down because maps used to say there'd be dragons there. Now they don't, but that don't mean the dragons aren't there."
    ...Billy Bob Thornton, Fargo

    PayPal to: Pete@Hyper-Formance.com
    Pete Aronson
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  25. #25
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Acworth, GA - USA

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Quote Originally Posted by Running Rabbit View Post
    The temp drop I'm talking about is the differential between the air being sucked into the return and the air being discharged out of the supply vent. A properly operating residential system should cool the air about 18-20 degrees as it travels through the unit. How many times it travels through the unit is up to you and your T-stat.

    OK, I have issues...only getting a 7 degree drop.

    Inlet is 73.9 and outlet is 66.7

    7.2 degrees total.

    I bet my R22 is low.


    Turn To The Spice! - "Macho Man" Randy Savage - Slim Jim Commercial

  26. #26
    Recovering Glockoholic
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Try getting a reading as close to the inside unit as possible. Sometimes the ducts in the attic can absorb quite a bit of heat on some longer runs.

    On upflow units in closets I check the return air at the floor and I stick a probe type thermometer through the ductwork just above the unit in the closet so I get a true reading regardless of duct heat absorbtion. If the unit is horizontal in the attic I'll punch the probe in the ducts on one end and then the other.

    Either way, yes you have some issue because even on a long run the air temp diff should still be at least 12-14 degrees on a hot day when the attic is cooking at 125+ degrees.


    Speak softly and carry a BIG stick.
    (and a .45)

  27. #27
    CarlM
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Central California

    Re: R12 vs. R134 vs. R22

    Some of our buses have R-22. The new one on order will not. Won't install it after 2010.


 

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