Carmax says I have frame damage!?

[hudsterboy]

Ok, so I have a '05 GTO. I hardly drive the damn thing and I'm thinking that maybe I'll sell it. So I bring it to Carmax because I want to get some sort of ballpark (already knowing that their offer will suck). So the guy comes back, and goes over the offer and says, "Oh, did you have an accident?. The appraisal comes back with:

Trunk Lid: Prior Paintwork
Left Quarter: Prior Paintwork
Right Quarter: Prior Repair
Frame: Frame Damage

Frame damage???? WTF? I bought this car new from the dealer in March of 05! I've had NO accident, and never had ANYthing done to it! The only thing that was fixed was the front passenger side seat.

The sales guy brought the buyer over, they opened the trunk, and showed me the left side weld, and the right side weld on the rear quarterpanel. There was a HUGE difference. The left was clearly factory, and you could feel where the paint was added.

So what do I do? Eat it? Go back to the dealership and tell them they sold me damaged goods? Get a lawyer?

[Neggy]

find a reputable person who knows about cars and have them go over the car.

just because their "appraisal" says something doesn't mean it is true, its not a CARFAX, and trust me there are tons of damaged cars out there that never saw a police report or insurance claim that are listed as clean on carfax but in reality were really messed up in accidents.

Can a car get damaged in shipping, on the lot, or on a test drive? Sure happens all the time. They are repaired and sold as new. Most car companies let the dealer replace any non welded panel at the dealer and not disclose it, When I worked at a Buick dealership we had to ship the cars that needed welded panels replaced back to GM. If we could hammer, dolly, dent pull, mud it up to save it in house it got done.

I suspect the place is trying to low ball you.

easiest way to tell if the car was ever on a frame machine is to look for the tool marks on the rocker panel ... very few techs bother to repaint/ refinish them after the car comes off the machine unless it is part of the repair. Other than that you crawl under the car and look for things out of place.

If you look on the left side of my car, behind the front wheel, you can see the stands that hold the car to the frame machine. When you tighten the clamps the serrated jaws leave marks.

[Neggy]

.

[KWICK]

It was probably wrecked while it was being driven by:
A potential customer
A lot attendant
A salesman...making a lunch run or as a demo
The owner of the dealership...our owner used to wreck cars all the time
Or, it was sold on a Sunday, the customer's credit didn't check out and it was repo-ed on Tuesday.

[hudsterboy]

Thanks for the pix neggy! I'm learning a lot today.

I have a feeling that Carmax's idea of "frame damage" is pretty broad. Probably means that someone looked at it funny. However, there's no denying that "something" happened on the car and they didn't tell me about it.

Does the dealership have -any- liability here, I wonder?

[Blue]

Sure they do; they sold you a .....ed up car.

However, I don't see a way you can prove to them (or a court of law) that it happened before you took possession of it. Unless you can have their invoices subpeoned (that's not gonna happen).

Apparently the car drives fine, you never had any issue with the way it performs, right? You should pay for the clean carfax you know the car has and pass it along. Used cars even sell from dealer "as is" and if it operates fine, sell it for what you can get, and don't guilt trip over it.

Blue

[KWICK]

I backed a new Mazda into a light pole at the dealer I worked at. Our bodyshop repaired it in a day with zero paperwork trail.

If CarFax picked it up, it was a bad hit as the dealer's insurance company paid for it.

[Simon]

i bought a "new" red cherokee limited in 89 and after a year the whole side turned orange. i took it to a local buddy who had a bodyshop at the time and he told me the whole side was mud. i am a picky sob and up until that point i had NO idea it had been wrecked. i fought it til i was blue in the face and ended up getting rolled. that jeep had 2 motors, 2 trannies, 4 rear diffs, 3 transfer cases and a front diff under warranty. a week after the warranty ran out the steering box ripped thru the frame.

[Simon]

Originally posted by KWICK
It was probably wrecked while it was being driven by:
A potential customer
A lot attendant
A salesman...making a lunch run or as a demo
The owner of the dealership...our owner used to wreck cars all the time
Or, it was sold on a Sunday, the customer's credit didn't check out and it was repo-ed on Tuesday.

absolutely

[hudsterboy]

I just called a lawyer. He's looking into it. My other option is to go into the dealership and start freaking out.

[Neggy]

crawl under the car, look at the frame rails. look for any sign that they were pushed towards the side of the car that was not damaged and pulled back.

look for signs of hammering on the rails. It is hard to describe what cars go thru on rear hits, but almost always there is damage to the rear reinforcement, which is easily hidden by the bumper cover, the trunk floor gets damaged when the rail gets swayed in a side or corner hit, or the floor gets damaged when the rail gets driven forward, or down in the case of a rear hit.

with all the upholstery in the trunk area its easy to hide damage. in the days of speckle paint, or even just having the interior of the trunk painted the same as the body color it was easy to see when something was mudded up.

There are some cars that the frame rails bend if you look at them the wrong way, a 5 mph bump will tweak them. Remember unibody cars are designed to bend in an accident to keep the force from getting transferred to the occupants. some just give more than others. My fav example of front ends that bent if you looked at them the wrong way were the Mustang/ltd/marquis Fox body cars. The front rails were long and there wasn't much strength once you got past the strut towers.

If the repair was done correctly, and it must have been good if you didn't notice, then I wouldn't worry. Show me a car that is more than a couple of years old that hasn't been repainted or repaired. If the trunk opens and closes ... hits the lock mechanism without jumping left or right, locks without slamming it, lines up to the adjacent panels.. levels the same... gap around the trunk to the rest of the panels are the same, not too wide on one side, not varying down the edge.. narrow at the rear window, almost touching at the tail light type of thing, and most importantly it doesn't leak ( look down in the spare tire well for water) then chances are the repair was done properly.

[KWICK]

Originally posted by hudsterboy
I just called a lawyer. He's looking into it. My other option is to go into the dealership and start freaking out.

Neither will do you any good.

There is a dollar amount that if it goes over, they have to disclose and/or a percentage of the body that was repaired. I guarantee that neither were met...we in the car biz have been doing this for many years and we know the rules.

If it was a demo, the rules don't apply.

[KWICK]

Neggy,
A funny story about repairs.
A friend had a buddy of mine repair her Lexus. He's really good...he does a lot of cars for Barrett-Jackson and his cars have won Pebble Beach Concours...anyay she took her car down to trade it in a couple years later.

The sales guy said: "your car has been repaired, we'll have to offer less as a trade in"

She said: "show me where..."

He did...showed her how the body lines didn't match, how the paint wasn't smooth, how the mouldings didn't quite line up...

He was showing her these things on the Factory side of the car, not the repaired side.

[Neggy]

do you remember when the hardest part of painting a car was trying to match the orange peel?

[KWICK]

Originally posted by Neggy
do you remember when the hardest part of painting a car was trying to match the orange peel?

Boy, do I.

I always tried to do completes so I could colorsand and buff to my heart's content. Being a hobbiest painter, I could do that.

[Ratboy]

Years ago, we had a disgruntled customer dump gallons of paint remover on about 20 new cars. Every one of them was repainted without a word to the buyers. On the other hand, I noticed paintwork on a brand new minivan coming off the truck. One of the old timers there told me it happens all the time at the rail yards? From then on, I've always inspected new car purchases just as closely as used ones.

My advice - sell it privately as the original owner and be done with it.

[hudsterboy]

Just talked to lawyer guy. Told me that according to the law it has to be under $500 or 3% or something. I would have to basically take it to an independent body shop, have them say if, in fact, the frame is actually damaged in a document, then see what happens.

I'll probably just keep it, though. It's a really fun car. I just ride the rex more, lol.

[Lloyd574]

We had the whole Nissan lot get nailed with hail stones once...This was before Dent fix guys were out there...300Z`s or 280`s I forget,Maximas, all new repaired and sold as new with Lacquer repairs..I bet they had a bunch of crazed paint in a few years or less..

All sold as new...

Your frame damage could just be a ever so slight bent bumper tab...If it was wrote up as 1 hr of work or .5..Carfax will pick it up..

They dealer should help you out on it, really...Help you with a trade or something..

[KWICK]

Originally posted by Ratboy
My advice - sell it privately as the original owner and be done with it.

...anyone spending over five grand for a used car will also check CarFax.

[hudsterboy]

Originally posted by KWICK
...anyone spending over five grand for a used car will also check CarFax.

The lawyer said that CarFax was clear. Will CarMax report it??

[KWICK]

Originally posted by hudsterboy
The lawyer said that CarFax was clear. Will CarMax report it??

What is CarMax? Never heard of it. I thought ewe couldn't spel.

[Ratboy]

Originally posted by KWICK
...anyone spending over five grand for a used car will also check CarFax.

I think you give them too much credit, especially with private sales. I've sold hundreds of cars and less than 1% run Carfax reports. Most buyers never even heard of it. Also, most buyers don't even care about paint work, nor do they have the eye to spot it.

[Tacmedic]

Originally posted by hudsterboy
Just talked to lawyer guy. Told me that according to the law it has to be under $500 or 3% or something. I would have to basically take it to an independent body shop, have them say if, in fact, the frame is actually damaged in a document, then see what happens.

I'll probably just keep it, though. It's a really fun car. I just ride the rex more, lol.

I have an '06 and love it. You can't go wrong with 400hp/ 400ft lbs and a six speed

I hope your issue gets resolved

[ZRX Mitch]

Originally posted by KWICK
What is CarMax? Never heard of it. I thought ewe couldn't spel.

CarMax....resale car lot.

[youngzrxer]

Our Infiniti dealer gets damaged cars weekly and we fix them (being reimbursed by the shipper) and nobody knows a thing...On the other hand, I have yet to see a damaged Lexus show up..They are always pristine.......And the only damaged Toyota I saw was one that got demolished when the driver didn't realize the bridge was two feet lower than the hoodline of the car

[Jerry]

Originally posted by hudsterboy
I'll probably just keep it, though. It's a really fun car. I just ride the rex more, lol.

Two BEST options without aggravation.

1. Keep it, it'll be a collector car in 20 years.

2. Keep it and sell it to me in a couple 3 years, I'll be ready for a new vehicle by then!

[hudsterboy]

Where were you when I was selling my 94 TransAm 3 years ago?
I think I'm going to end up keeping it.

Maybe I'll bring it by the dealer and try to make him throw some 18" rims/tires on it, lol. As if.

Originally posted by Jerry
Two BEST options without aggravation.

1. Keep it, it'll be a collector car in 20 years.

2. Keep it and sell it to me in a couple 3 years, I'll be ready for a new vehicle by then!

[Neggy]

one place I worked paid the lot manager a % of any shipping damage he found when accepting cars from the carriers. The drivers hated him, because once they loaded the car they owned any damage. If the driver missed it at the rail yard and my buddy found it, the shipping company had to pay to fix it.

[Jerry]

Originally posted by hudsterboy
Where were you when I was selling my 94 TransAm 3 years ago?

Right here, where were you when I was BUYING one??

I traded a 2002 ZRX in for a 1997 Black WS6 California Speedway Innagural Race Pace Car Trans Am just a few months before you registered as a member.

[WingsOfSteel]

Originally posted by KWICK
It was probably wrecked while it was being driven by:
A potential customer
A lot attendant
A salesman...making a lunch run or as a demo
The owner of the dealership...our owner used to wreck cars all the time
Or, it was sold on a Sunday, the customer's credit didn't check out and it was repo-ed on Tuesday.

I used to work at few different body shops during summer breaks from school, and let me tell you there were many customers coming in with a straight car wanting nothing more than a simple paint job and leaving with some serious damage, and a bondo beast- and they never suspected a thing.