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  1. #1
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Deep South

    Carmax says I have frame damage!?

    Ok, so I have a '05 GTO. I hardly drive the damn thing and I'm thinking that maybe I'll sell it. So I bring it to Carmax because I want to get some sort of ballpark (already knowing that their offer will suck). So the guy comes back, and goes over the offer and says, "Oh, did you have an accident?. The appraisal comes back with:

    Trunk Lid: Prior Paintwork
    Left Quarter: Prior Paintwork
    Right Quarter: Prior Repair
    Frame: Frame Damage

    Frame damage???? WTF? I bought this car new from the dealer in March of 05! I've had NO accident, and never had ANYthing done to it! The only thing that was fixed was the front passenger side seat.

    The sales guy brought the buyer over, they opened the trunk, and showed me the left side weld, and the right side weld on the rear quarterpanel. There was a HUGE difference. The left was clearly factory, and you could feel where the paint was added.

    So what do I do? Eat it? Go back to the dealership and tell them they sold me damaged goods? Get a lawyer?
    ZRXOA #6051
    -Muzzy full carbon
    -Ivan's carb kit
    -Ivan's block off plates
    -CRG LS mirrors
    -Round headlight mod
    -Pods
    -Coerce sprocket cover
    -GSXR damper and mikimoto's clamp
    -Corbin GF&L
    -Ted's advancer (finally!)
    -Modified Oil Pan

  2. #2
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    03076 / 33917
    find a reputable person who knows about cars and have them go over the car.

    just because their "appraisal" says something doesn't mean it is true, its not a CARFAX, and trust me there are tons of damaged cars out there that never saw a police report or insurance claim that are listed as clean on carfax but in reality were really messed up in accidents.

    Can a car get damaged in shipping, on the lot, or on a test drive? Sure happens all the time. They are repaired and sold as new. Most car companies let the dealer replace any non welded panel at the dealer and not disclose it, When I worked at a Buick dealership we had to ship the cars that needed welded panels replaced back to GM. If we could hammer, dolly, dent pull, mud it up to save it in house it got done.

    I suspect the place is trying to low ball you.

    easiest way to tell if the car was ever on a frame machine is to look for the tool marks on the rocker panel ... very few techs bother to repaint/ refinish them after the car comes off the machine unless it is part of the repair. Other than that you crawl under the car and look for things out of place.

    If you look on the left side of my car, behind the front wheel, you can see the stands that hold the car to the frame machine. When you tighten the clamps the serrated jaws leave marks.
    Last edited by Neggy; 12-11-2009 at 01:16 PM.

  3. #3
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    03076 / 33917
    .
    Last edited by Neggy; 12-11-2009 at 01:16 PM.

  4. #4
    The Doktor is Inn
    Jeff Zucker look alike

    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    This ^
    It was probably wrecked while it was being driven by:
    A potential customer
    A lot attendant
    A salesman...making a lunch run or as a demo
    The owner of the dealership...our owner used to wreck cars all the time
    Or, it was sold on a Sunday, the customer's credit didn't check out and it was repo-ed on Tuesday.

    ooooooooooooo

    WARNING: ELS Products MAY CONTAIN, or be Made With, Patented Parts, Tools, Components and/or Apparati. Manufacturing Facility DOES Contain Nuts.

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    Pete Aronson
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    602-397-4869.

  5. #5
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Deep South
    Thanks for the pix neggy! I'm learning a lot today.

    I have a feeling that Carmax's idea of "frame damage" is pretty broad. Probably means that someone looked at it funny. However, there's no denying that "something" happened on the car and they didn't tell me about it.

    Does the dealership have -any- liability here, I wonder?
    ZRXOA #6051
    -Muzzy full carbon
    -Ivan's carb kit
    -Ivan's block off plates
    -CRG LS mirrors
    -Round headlight mod
    -Pods
    -Coerce sprocket cover
    -GSXR damper and mikimoto's clamp
    -Corbin GF&L
    -Ted's advancer (finally!)
    -Modified Oil Pan

  6. #6
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    NJ
    Sure they do; they sold you a .....ed up car.

    However, I don't see a way you can prove to them (or a court of law) that it happened before you took possession of it. Unless you can have their invoices subpeoned (that's not gonna happen).

    Apparently the car drives fine, you never had any issue with the way it performs, right? You should pay for the clean carfax you know the car has and pass it along. Used cars even sell from dealer "as is" and if it operates fine, sell it for what you can get, and don't guilt trip over it.

    Blue

  7. #7
    The Doktor is Inn
    Jeff Zucker look alike

    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    This ^
    I backed a new Mazda into a light pole at the dealer I worked at. Our bodyshop repaired it in a day with zero paperwork trail.

    If CarFax picked it up, it was a bad hit as the dealer's insurance company paid for it.

    ooooooooooooo

    WARNING: ELS Products MAY CONTAIN, or be Made With, Patented Parts, Tools, Components and/or Apparati. Manufacturing Facility DOES Contain Nuts.

    PayPal to: Pete@Hyper-Formance.com
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    Pete Aronson
    315 West Elliot Road
    Suites 107-487
    Tempe, AZ 85284
    602-397-4869.

  8. #8
    Fast. No need to say more.
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    i bought a "new" red cherokee limited in 89 and after a year the whole side turned orange. i took it to a local buddy who had a bodyshop at the time and he told me the whole side was mud. i am a picky sob and up until that point i had NO idea it had been wrecked. i fought it til i was blue in the face and ended up getting rolled. that jeep had 2 motors, 2 trannies, 4 rear diffs, 3 transfer cases and a front diff under warranty. a week after the warranty ran out the steering box ripped thru the frame.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sportin' View Post
    add some power to that slug and you wouldn't have to clutch up a wheelie

  9. #9
    Fast. No need to say more.
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Originally posted by KWICK
    It was probably wrecked while it was being driven by:
    A potential customer
    A lot attendant
    A salesman...making a lunch run or as a demo
    The owner of the dealership...our owner used to wreck cars all the time
    Or, it was sold on a Sunday, the customer's credit didn't check out and it was repo-ed on Tuesday.

    absolutely
    Quote Originally Posted by Sportin' View Post
    add some power to that slug and you wouldn't have to clutch up a wheelie

  10. #10
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Deep South
    I just called a lawyer. He's looking into it. My other option is to go into the dealership and start freaking out.
    ZRXOA #6051
    -Muzzy full carbon
    -Ivan's carb kit
    -Ivan's block off plates
    -CRG LS mirrors
    -Round headlight mod
    -Pods
    -Coerce sprocket cover
    -GSXR damper and mikimoto's clamp
    -Corbin GF&L
    -Ted's advancer (finally!)
    -Modified Oil Pan

  11. #11
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    03076 / 33917
    crawl under the car, look at the frame rails. look for any sign that they were pushed towards the side of the car that was not damaged and pulled back.

    look for signs of hammering on the rails. It is hard to describe what cars go thru on rear hits, but almost always there is damage to the rear reinforcement, which is easily hidden by the bumper cover, the trunk floor gets damaged when the rail gets swayed in a side or corner hit, or the floor gets damaged when the rail gets driven forward, or down in the case of a rear hit.

    with all the upholstery in the trunk area its easy to hide damage. in the days of speckle paint, or even just having the interior of the trunk painted the same as the body color it was easy to see when something was mudded up.

    There are some cars that the frame rails bend if you look at them the wrong way, a 5 mph bump will tweak them. Remember unibody cars are designed to bend in an accident to keep the force from getting transferred to the occupants. some just give more than others. My fav example of front ends that bent if you looked at them the wrong way were the Mustang/ltd/marquis Fox body cars. The front rails were long and there wasn't much strength once you got past the strut towers.

    If the repair was done correctly, and it must have been good if you didn't notice, then I wouldn't worry. Show me a car that is more than a couple of years old that hasn't been repainted or repaired. If the trunk opens and closes ... hits the lock mechanism without jumping left or right, locks without slamming it, lines up to the adjacent panels.. levels the same... gap around the trunk to the rest of the panels are the same, not too wide on one side, not varying down the edge.. narrow at the rear window, almost touching at the tail light type of thing, and most importantly it doesn't leak ( look down in the spare tire well for water) then chances are the repair was done properly.

  12. #12
    The Doktor is Inn
    Jeff Zucker look alike

    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    This ^
    Originally posted by hudsterboy
    I just called a lawyer. He's looking into it. My other option is to go into the dealership and start freaking out.
    Neither will do you any good.

    There is a dollar amount that if it goes over, they have to disclose and/or a percentage of the body that was repaired. I guarantee that neither were met...we in the car biz have been doing this for many years and we know the rules.

    If it was a demo, the rules don't apply.

    ooooooooooooo

    WARNING: ELS Products MAY CONTAIN, or be Made With, Patented Parts, Tools, Components and/or Apparati. Manufacturing Facility DOES Contain Nuts.

    PayPal to: Pete@Hyper-Formance.com
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    Pete Aronson
    315 West Elliot Road
    Suites 107-487
    Tempe, AZ 85284
    602-397-4869.

  13. #13
    The Doktor is Inn
    Jeff Zucker look alike

    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    This ^
    Neggy,
    A funny story about repairs.
    A friend had a buddy of mine repair her Lexus. He's really good...he does a lot of cars for Barrett-Jackson and his cars have won Pebble Beach Concours...anyay she took her car down to trade it in a couple years later.

    The sales guy said: "your car has been repaired, we'll have to offer less as a trade in"

    She said: "show me where..."

    He did...showed her how the body lines didn't match, how the paint wasn't smooth, how the mouldings didn't quite line up...

    He was showing her these things on the Factory side of the car, not the repaired side.

    ooooooooooooo

    WARNING: ELS Products MAY CONTAIN, or be Made With, Patented Parts, Tools, Components and/or Apparati. Manufacturing Facility DOES Contain Nuts.

    PayPal to: Pete@Hyper-Formance.com
    Or: www.PayPal.me/KWICK
    Pete Aronson
    315 West Elliot Road
    Suites 107-487
    Tempe, AZ 85284
    602-397-4869.

  14. #14
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    03076 / 33917
    do you remember when the hardest part of painting a car was trying to match the orange peel?

  15. #15
    The Doktor is Inn
    Jeff Zucker look alike

    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    This ^
    Originally posted by Neggy
    do you remember when the hardest part of painting a car was trying to match the orange peel?
    Boy, do I.

    I always tried to do completes so I could colorsand and buff to my heart's content. Being a hobbiest painter, I could do that.

    ooooooooooooo

    WARNING: ELS Products MAY CONTAIN, or be Made With, Patented Parts, Tools, Components and/or Apparati. Manufacturing Facility DOES Contain Nuts.

    PayPal to: Pete@Hyper-Formance.com
    Or: www.PayPal.me/KWICK
    Pete Aronson
    315 West Elliot Road
    Suites 107-487
    Tempe, AZ 85284
    602-397-4869.

  16. #16
    Nuts
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    San Jose noob
    Years ago, we had a disgruntled customer dump gallons of paint remover on about 20 new cars. Every one of them was repainted without a word to the buyers. On the other hand, I noticed paintwork on a brand new minivan coming off the truck. One of the old timers there told me it happens all the time at the rail yards? From then on, I've always inspected new car purchases just as closely as used ones.

    My advice - sell it privately as the original owner and be done with it.
    If a problem is fixable, if a situation is such that you can do something about it, then there is no need to worry. If it's not fixable, then there is no help in worrying. There is no benefit in worrying whatsoever.

  17. #17
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Deep South
    Just talked to lawyer guy. Told me that according to the law it has to be under $500 or 3% or something. I would have to basically take it to an independent body shop, have them say if, in fact, the frame is actually damaged in a document, then see what happens.

    I'll probably just keep it, though. It's a really fun car. I just ride the rex more, lol.
    ZRXOA #6051
    -Muzzy full carbon
    -Ivan's carb kit
    -Ivan's block off plates
    -CRG LS mirrors
    -Round headlight mod
    -Pods
    -Coerce sprocket cover
    -GSXR damper and mikimoto's clamp
    -Corbin GF&L
    -Ted's advancer (finally!)
    -Modified Oil Pan

  18. #18
    Rideaholic

    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Illinois
    We had the whole Nissan lot get nailed with hail stones once...This was before Dent fix guys were out there...300Z`s or 280`s I forget,Maximas, all new repaired and sold as new with Lacquer repairs..I bet they had a bunch of crazed paint in a few years or less..

    All sold as new...

    Your frame damage could just be a ever so slight bent bumper tab...If it was wrote up as 1 hr of work or .5..Carfax will pick it up..

    They dealer should help you out on it, really...Help you with a trade or something..
    You learn more about life from doing the things you are not suppost to do



    Heck, My 93 Celica gets 34 MPG
    2002 R1 Little Boy Blue
    2008 Triumph Tiger 1050 White
    2004 Burgman 650 Blk
    Wife has a 2004 GTP Yes, it is a Import

  19. #19
    The Doktor is Inn
    Jeff Zucker look alike

    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    This ^
    Originally posted by Ratboy
    My advice - sell it privately as the original owner and be done with it.
    ...anyone spending over five grand for a used car will also check CarFax.

    ooooooooooooo

    WARNING: ELS Products MAY CONTAIN, or be Made With, Patented Parts, Tools, Components and/or Apparati. Manufacturing Facility DOES Contain Nuts.

    PayPal to: Pete@Hyper-Formance.com
    Or: www.PayPal.me/KWICK
    Pete Aronson
    315 West Elliot Road
    Suites 107-487
    Tempe, AZ 85284
    602-397-4869.

  20. #20
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Deep South
    Originally posted by KWICK
    ...anyone spending over five grand for a used car will also check CarFax.
    The lawyer said that CarFax was clear. Will CarMax report it??
    ZRXOA #6051
    -Muzzy full carbon
    -Ivan's carb kit
    -Ivan's block off plates
    -CRG LS mirrors
    -Round headlight mod
    -Pods
    -Coerce sprocket cover
    -GSXR damper and mikimoto's clamp
    -Corbin GF&L
    -Ted's advancer (finally!)
    -Modified Oil Pan

  21. #21
    The Doktor is Inn
    Jeff Zucker look alike

    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    This ^
    Originally posted by hudsterboy
    The lawyer said that CarFax was clear. Will CarMax report it??
    What is CarMax? Never heard of it. I thought ewe couldn't spel.

    ooooooooooooo

    WARNING: ELS Products MAY CONTAIN, or be Made With, Patented Parts, Tools, Components and/or Apparati. Manufacturing Facility DOES Contain Nuts.

    PayPal to: Pete@Hyper-Formance.com
    Or: www.PayPal.me/KWICK
    Pete Aronson
    315 West Elliot Road
    Suites 107-487
    Tempe, AZ 85284
    602-397-4869.

  22. #22
    Nuts
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    San Jose noob
    Originally posted by KWICK
    ...anyone spending over five grand for a used car will also check CarFax.
    I think you give them too much credit, especially with private sales. I've sold hundreds of cars and less than 1% run Carfax reports. Most buyers never even heard of it. Also, most buyers don't even care about paint work, nor do they have the eye to spot it.
    If a problem is fixable, if a situation is such that you can do something about it, then there is no need to worry. If it's not fixable, then there is no help in worrying. There is no benefit in worrying whatsoever.

  23. #23
    Super Moderator
    Hooligan Paramedic &
    Master Biscuit Maker

    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Franklin TN
    Originally posted by hudsterboy
    Just talked to lawyer guy. Told me that according to the law it has to be under $500 or 3% or something. I would have to basically take it to an independent body shop, have them say if, in fact, the frame is actually damaged in a document, then see what happens.

    I'll probably just keep it, though. It's a really fun car. I just ride the rex more, lol.
    I have an '06 and love it. You can't go wrong with 400hp/ 400ft lbs and a six speed

    I hope your issue gets resolved
    Make a fast friend. Adopt a retired racing Greyhound

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  24. #24
    c10's best friend
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Tomball, Tx.
    Originally posted by KWICK
    What is CarMax? Never heard of it. I thought ewe couldn't spel.

    CarMax....resale car lot.
    Iron Butt Association #18591

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  25. #25
    The Young and the 'Rex-less
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Howell, Mi
    Our Infiniti dealer gets damaged cars weekly and we fix them (being reimbursed by the shipper) and nobody knows a thing...On the other hand, I have yet to see a damaged Lexus show up..They are always pristine.......And the only damaged Toyota I saw was one that got demolished when the driver didn't realize the bridge was two feet lower than the hoodline of the car

  26. #26
    aka: The Flasher
    Inner Circle Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    So Cal. between Hemet and Temecula
    Originally posted by hudsterboy
    I'll probably just keep it, though. It's a really fun car. I just ride the rex more, lol.
    Two BEST options without aggravation.

    1. Keep it, it'll be a collector car in 20 years.

    2. Keep it and sell it to me in a couple 3 years, I'll be ready for a new vehicle by then!
    Current ride....2009 Suzuki Bandit 1250,Black

    Past Pleasures
    1974 GT 380 Suzuki
    1982 GS750EZ Suzuki
    1985 V65 1100 Honda Sabre
    1986 VN750 Kawasaki Vulcan
    1994 VN750 Kawasaki Vulcan
    2002 ZRX 1200R Red of course
    2004 ZRX 1200R Another Red one
    2006 Triumph Sprint ST1050
    2007 Suzuki Bandit1250
    2008 Yamaha FJR1300

    May God Bless and Protect My Brothers and Sisters Who Ride With The Wind!

    F P miss you buddy!

    ZRX member # 3706

  27. #27
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Deep South
    Where were you when I was selling my 94 TransAm 3 years ago?
    I think I'm going to end up keeping it.

    Maybe I'll bring it by the dealer and try to make him throw some 18" rims/tires on it, lol. As if.

    Originally posted by Jerry
    Two BEST options without aggravation.

    1. Keep it, it'll be a collector car in 20 years.

    2. Keep it and sell it to me in a couple 3 years, I'll be ready for a new vehicle by then!
    ZRXOA #6051
    -Muzzy full carbon
    -Ivan's carb kit
    -Ivan's block off plates
    -CRG LS mirrors
    -Round headlight mod
    -Pods
    -Coerce sprocket cover
    -GSXR damper and mikimoto's clamp
    -Corbin GF&L
    -Ted's advancer (finally!)
    -Modified Oil Pan

  28. #28
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    03076 / 33917
    one place I worked paid the lot manager a % of any shipping damage he found when accepting cars from the carriers. The drivers hated him, because once they loaded the car they owned any damage. If the driver missed it at the rail yard and my buddy found it, the shipping company had to pay to fix it.

  29. #29
    aka: The Flasher
    Inner Circle Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    So Cal. between Hemet and Temecula
    Originally posted by hudsterboy
    Where were you when I was selling my 94 TransAm 3 years ago?
    Right here, where were you when I was BUYING one??

    I traded a 2002 ZRX in for a 1997 Black WS6 California Speedway Innagural Race Pace Car Trans Am just a few months before you registered as a member.
    Current ride....2009 Suzuki Bandit 1250,Black

    Past Pleasures
    1974 GT 380 Suzuki
    1982 GS750EZ Suzuki
    1985 V65 1100 Honda Sabre
    1986 VN750 Kawasaki Vulcan
    1994 VN750 Kawasaki Vulcan
    2002 ZRX 1200R Red of course
    2004 ZRX 1200R Another Red one
    2006 Triumph Sprint ST1050
    2007 Suzuki Bandit1250
    2008 Yamaha FJR1300

    May God Bless and Protect My Brothers and Sisters Who Ride With The Wind!

    F P miss you buddy!

    ZRX member # 3706

  30. #30
    BadAss Hooligan
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    John's Island, South Carolina
    Originally posted by KWICK
    It was probably wrecked while it was being driven by:
    A potential customer
    A lot attendant
    A salesman...making a lunch run or as a demo
    The owner of the dealership...our owner used to wreck cars all the time
    Or, it was sold on a Sunday, the customer's credit didn't check out and it was repo-ed on Tuesday.
    I used to work at few different body shops during summer breaks from school, and let me tell you there were many customers coming in with a straight car wanting nothing more than a simple paint job and leaving with some serious damage, and a bondo beast- and they never suspected a thing.


 

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